Is Defraggler "VSS-Aware"?

[sjf2]

I have a question but I'm going to provide some background information first so that Newbies can benefit too.

 

I've just been looking at defag programs and in comparing functionality. I have found that a major functionality is missing from most 3rd party defrag programs. Most 3rd party programs do not process "Volume Shadow Storage" disk drives properly which causes problems with all of the VSS programs and features.

 

 

 

Third-Party Defrag programs, Windows VSS Services, Volume Shadows, and deleted Restore Points.

 

A VSS-enabled volume creates "shadow" or hidden copies of active files which then can be used for "System Restore" functionality. The VSS feature of Windows is enabled by default and disabling it disables System Restore (XP, Vista, Win7, Win8) and "Previous Version" file restore (Win7, Win8). Since it's not feasible to disable VSS in order to make VSS work with 3rd party programs… than it makes it imperative that 3rd party program must be "VSS-Aware".

 

When a 3rd Party program doesn’t know about VSS, it writes to disk volumes in exactly the same way that Windows writes to those volumes -- which, for a defrag program, is bad and it will result in the loss of VSS records and in turn, System Restore Points.

 

When Windows writes to a VSS-Enabled volume, it writes the file like you would expect and then the VSS service writes copies of the changes made to the reserved space allotted to VSS (15% of total volme). This process could be loosely compared to a "differential backup”. The amount of (compressed) VSS data that is generated by the normal writing of files is very minimal in comparison to the overall size of the volume. Basically, the amount of changed data across the whole volume is small on a daily or even weekly basis. That translates to a very small amount of compressed “differential” data written to the VSS Shadow.

 

Although the un-VSS-Aware defrag program writes to the disk just as Windows does, it reads and writes ALL of the live data on a volume, “just like Windows does”. Because of this, VSS creates “differential” files for EVERY live file, which, since most files were never “shadowed” before, means that the “difference” is really the whole file. So as the volume is defraged, all the file data is “shadowed” and the “shadow” copying goes very quickly and fills-up the allotted VSS space very quickly. Windows, as it sees that the free area for VSS shadows is decreasing, it starts to remove “shadows” and therefore “Restore Points” - from oldest to newest - in order to free up space. In other words, depending upon disk used space and VSS space configured, defragging some volumes will cause all the restore points to disappear.

 

In order to maintain the system restore points, a “VSS-Aware” defrag program must be used. These programs tell Windows which files are being written and VSS does not create a shadow for those files. In my research, the only VSS-Aware defrag programs are: 1) Windows native defrag program which is part of Windows, and 2) Diskkeeper by Condusiv Technologies. Fun Fact: The first Graphical defrag program that Windows included with the operating system was in XP and it was a MS-branded version of the basic Diskkeeper program of the day.

 

 

 

 

My question is…

Does Piriform Defraggler support Windows VSS Volumes without deleting restore points?

[mta]

In Settings, Options, Advanced, VSS can be stopped while defrag'ing.

Now what that actually does at the code level, I don't know.

 

Where did that quote come from by the way?

 

I'm not aware of any defrag process that deletes files, or Restore Points in particular, that simply should not be the domain of a file re-arranging algorithm.

[scottls]

I have a question but I'm going to provide some background information first so that Newbies can benefit too.

 

I've just been looking at defag programs and in comparing functionality. I have found that a major functionality is missing from most 3rd party defrag programs. Most 3rd party programs do not process "Volume Shadow Storage" disk drives properly which causes problems with all of the VSS programs and features.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My question is…

Does Piriform Defraggler support Windows VSS Volumes without deleting restore points?

 

I've tried several other 3d party defrags that did Not pre-disable VSS (like DF does), and they made a Horrible Mess out of my HD/OS...!

 

BTW- Win 7 defrag is Much Faster (VSS safe), but leaves parts of programs... scattered all over my HD!

I get Much Better system Performance, after DF does it's more thorough compacting...

[dvdbane]

dunno if it is outdate or not but you can refer here

http://www.piriform.com/docs/defraggler/technical-information/windows-vista-and-volume-shadow-copies

[Alan_B]

Defraggler uses API's which are supplied by Microsoft for safely avoiding damage to Windows and its applications.

 

It seems unlikely that any file would be damaged or destroyed if it was being defragged and VSS has to READ (or ReRead) that file for a snapshot.

 

I believe that defragging and or Wiping Free Space has been known to cause the loss of some Restore Points which lurk in System Volume Information,

in which also lurks the VSS Shadow region.

I believe VSS may displace and thus remove Restore Points if it gets too busy taking snapshots as user files are changed,

regardless of whether they are simply being relocated by a defragger, or part of an application suite that is being updated.

 

I would probably trust a quote that included a link to Microsoft.

I have no trust at all in a quote without any such link,

and when I search for "Third-Party Defrag programs, Windows VSS Services, Volume Shadows, and deleted Restore Points" I get

About 256 results (0.32 seconds)

Because there are not enough results that match your query, we are showing results without quotes.

 

and on the first page I get links to :-

PCWorld (not my first choice for technical excellence), and

Two off third party Defraggers - links to which probably violate forum rules.

 

The word "Microsoft" appears only once in the first four pages of results, and this takes me to

http://support.micro....com/kb/2506576

which blames the user :-

This issue can be caused if the maximum storage size limit is set to low for your shadow storage.

 

Sorry, but I cannot help wondering if this is an innocent topic,

or something planted here by a third party defragging competitor with the intention of causing unrest.

[sjf2]

>>Where did that quote come from by the way?

 

I wrote it...

 

>>I'm not aware of any defrag process that deletes files, or Restore Points in particular, that simply should not be the domain of a file re-arranging algorithm.

 

You are correct. Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. The defrag process does nothing with the VSS shadow and the restore points -- except exacerbate an inherent, and unavoidable, weakness of VSS. If VSS is running, every write to the VSS-Enabled disk triggers VSS to create a shadow of the file changes and stores it in its designated area. Now, VSS is very smart and if a Windows process writes a file, the shadow is created with just the changes (like an incremental backup) and if Windows undoes that change by writing the file update back to it's original data, VSS will remove the shadow for that very change. This helps keep the VSS data to a minimum and because, in practice, there really are very few changes on the system disk, VSS can happily run with its max size at 4Mb (unless you want to keep more than... 3 or 4 system restore points).

 

That's where a non-VSS-Aware defrag program comes in. If VSS is running, every write that the defrag program makes is shadowed, just like a normal write. However, the defrag reads and writes (moves) all the files so, to VSS, it looks like every byte of every file is being changed and that causes VSS to try and shadow all of the defragging activity -- which is a complete waste of time -- and by "waste of time" I actually mean the consumption of CPU cycles and memory reads/writes -- and -- these are resources that Windows could use or they could get used by the defrag.

 

Now, the unwanted effect is that the VSS process consumes its allotted space and grows to its max size -- which if left at default is 15% of the total disk space. In addition, the defrag program will use as much free disk space as it can get (but it has limits which keep this reasonable) to speed the process. As this constant increase of useless shadows continues, Windows sees that the free space is getting low so the first thing it does is -- drum roll -- reduces the VSS space and deletes system restore points.

 

So, no defrag program does anything to the Volume Shadow on a volume – but – it can help Windows shoot itself in the foot. If the defrag program is VSS aware (or VSS configurable), the problem of VSS creating useless shadows and destroying its own system restore points is avoided (notice I didn’t say, “is fixed”).

 

So the choices are:

1) Use the built-in Windows defrag program which is VSS-Aware and which sucks.

2) Use a 3rd party defrag program that is VSS-Aware (Defraggler?).

3) Use something else and get used to losing your restore points and hope that you will never need them.

4) Don't defrag your system drive (usually C:) and live with the slower speed of a fragmented.

[Alan_B]

"Now, VSS is very smart and if a Windows process writes a file, the shadow is created with just the changes (like an incremental backup) and if Windows undoes that change by writing the file update back to it's original data, VSS will remove the shadow for that very change."

In my view either you are wrong in your interpretation of Microsoft's obtuse documentation,

or Windows should NOT be doing that.

 

I believe Macrium Reflect creates partition image backups and depends upon VSS to ensure that the entire backup is fully consistent with a snapshot that exactly captures all relevant sectors,

and it does so on the basis of actual sector address LBA's and not by file and folder names.

The creation of the backup may last for hours.

If Windows defrag should move a file, then VSS should NOT remove the shadow copy of where it was until Macrium has accessed the shadow of that relocated data and signalled to VSS that the shadow is no longer needed.

 

I think other third party backups also depend upon VSS.

 

If Macrium etc. is creating a backup and VSS discards the shadows that were created due to its own VSS Aware defragger, then the image backup would be inconsistent.

 

I think it is a common experience that various third party image solutions such as Macrium reflect are more dependable than what is built into Windows.

[sjf2]

Sorry, but I cannot help wondering if this is an innocent topic,or something planted here by a third party defragging competitor with the intention of causing unrest.

 

Oh come on now, are you kidding me? You didn't actually type that, did you?

 

I'm sorry that you didn't find my "quote" adequate or containing the right references. So this is forum is now an extension of Wiki? I'm so sorry, If I could have offset it from the rest of the post in any other way, I would have and I would not have used the [ quote ] syntax - but that's what I had to work with. And to think that little detail is so important to so many... Whose causing unrest here???

 

And you actually Google'd the SUMMARY I typed at the top -- why -- because you thought it was the title of some college kid's thesis? Did you think that you would find a copy, somewhere, and then accuse me of plagiarism? What kind of twisted thinking drives you? Or for that matter, what kind of twisted, cynical thinking drives so many of you that, instead of answering the question I asked, you decided it was more important to berate me, and on my first visit to this forum, too. Well, this will also be my last visit and my consideration of any or Piriform's products -- based solely on your attitude and that of a select few others, has ended. You obviously have no one to answer to in your self-appointed capacities as all-knowing, all-seeing software swamis.

 

I would have to say that Piriform must not monitor this forum. So, I have to know... You have NOTHING better to do than wait around on a forum for someone to make a post that you can reply to?? What... Do you have a Superman complex and you picture yourself swooping in to help Joe User and therefore must be vigilant at your keyboard, ready to pounce.

 

I have run into many of your type in my researching different products and that is the largest reason I wrote up those few paragraphs of BACKGROUND this time. I was tired of asking a question and then having to spoon-feed a clueless forum member with all the information he/she needed to answer my question -- and of course, wrongly. What possesses a person to think that his "contribution" to a silly "Internet bulletin-board" is so important the he/she will even go so far as to write a post saying, "I don't know the answer".

 

I wrote that bit of a brain dump for this post and, as I clearly stated it was for "background" so newbies wouldn't be totally confused. If I had made any statement in there that suggested that I had an answer for this problem, or any mention of instructions to do this or that, I would take the criticism. However, I did not do that but instead tried to write an explanation of a problem that I had and what I learned through my research. It is unfortunate that some forum members did not read my post completely or, because they had already determined that it was wrong, read it as such and complained. I particularly enjoy when members refute something I said when I said nothing of the sort. If anyone didn't comprehend, from my short blurb, what I actually said, then a re-reading might be in order. I never said that defrag programs cause any damage or deletion of files. As I explained, the VSS process is the process that fills the disk with unneeded data and Windows (file system management) deletes the system restore points". It just so happens that "bad" defrag programs exacerbate an inherent and unavoidable deficiency in the VSS concept.

 

I came here to find out if Defraggler was or was not VSS-Aware and by accident, someone answered my question and I came to the conclusion that Defraggler had met the requirements for an Enterprise installation at my company. However, after this exchange, Defraggler is off the table and I no longer give a s**t about this forum.

[Nergal]

I believe that the answer to the original question was answered here.

In Settings, Options, Advanced, VSS can be stopped while defrag'ing.

Now what that actually does at the code level, I don't know.

 

I'm not sure where this thread went wrong but an innocent question about a quoted passage was answered that the poster him/herself wrote it (which I don't understand why it was quoted then...but beside the point).

Whatever accusation you felt in the posts, I am sorry for; we have had a rash or trolls (see edit below) attacking defraggler and piriform as a whole lately, and sometimes community members might think they are acting in defense of the work done by piriform, but inadvertently offend instead.

A VSS propagating issue is indeed solved by MTA's pointing to the option

 

EdIT: one of the tactics these trolls have used is to bury the thread in long drawn out technical details; many of which are either fiction, debunked or misleading, not to say your facts are or are not, just as an explanation. Another method they use is to copy paste long drawn out diatribes on multiple competitor's sites, which (often in later posts even from "other" members) are "solved" by X product. This may have been what was behind @Alan_B's methods (though he needn't broadcast to the world that he did it...hint hint alan).

Everyone on this board are just everyday users, the company doesn't usually post here unless they need to (though they do read every post) If, you are still interested in looking into defraggler for enterprise they have a separate route to contact them and answer your personal issues/queries.

[mta]

and to just highlight what hopefully is obviously an inherit problem with the written medium....

 

we shouldn't judge intent on what we read, it can be implied, even inferred, but without the visual cues of body language, facial expressions and voice inflections, we should take it that things are written with what should be assumed is good natured advice.

 

let's assume the best before jumping to the worst.

[Alan_B]

Oh come on now, are you kidding me? You didn't actually type that, did you?

...

However, after this exchange, Defraggler is off the table and I no longer give a s**t about this forum.

I can hardly believe my innocent comment in a single line has provoked a full screen dump of rage and fury.

 

When you used a QUOTE to contain a mass of technical information,

that implies that the information did NOT originate from your own knowledge but from some other authority,

and I naturally wondered which authority and the context and the relevance to the subject at hand.

 

You potential plagiarism never occurred to me.

Actually, if I may get technical on you,

plagiarism is when you copy and paste some other persons work so that it appears to be part of your own work and NOT from another.

 

By planting your thoughts in a QUOTE box you are actually disclaiming responsibility for all your errors and omissions,

and that was deceptive by nature, even if not by intent.

[Tooslow]

At the risk of stepping into the lion's den... Having recently updated Defraggler to 2.16.809 (64 bit) it is now deleting restore points. It didn't do that before. I am using "out of the box" settings, as I don't know any better. The way the description is written I infer that ticking the VSS box will prevent defragmentation of the system restore points but has no bearing on removing them. Or not. ??

 

I have just ticked the VSS box and run Defraggler and my system restore point has gone. The one I created a few minutes ago after finding that I had none after running Defraggler with the VSS box not ticked. And I did moments before.

 

So it looks like Defraggler is deleting system restore points, which is bad news.

 

John

[mta]

not confirmed here.

DF v2.16.809(64-bit)

win8.1 pro x64

stop VSS ticked, exclude pagefile ticked, exclude restore file ticked.

 

ran DF on drive C:\, had 2 restore points before, had 2 after.

(which has highlighted the fact that the recent win8.1 update turned on the Sys Restore feature which I always have off - so it's been a doubly good test for me !!!)

[Tooslow]

I've tried with Win 7.0 and Win 8.0. Both 64 bit. Same results on each.

 

Exclude pagefile ticked? Where's that? Under the Exclude tab I just have an empty box.

Exclude restore file. Is that the one under Settings, Options, Advanced, tick in "use custom fragmentation settings" and then in "Define" a tick in the "Exclude restore point file" box?

 

As far as I know I am using "out of the box" settings.

 

John

[Tooslow]

As a precaution, and out of curiosity, I deleted DF from Win 8.0 and clean installed. I didn't change any options. I ran DF and... my restore point was still there afterwards.

 

John