21 replies to this topic

[Beachdog]

Just how good is CCleaner? I'm curious because here in Australia police recently recovered info on sites visited to prosecute a person guilty of assault. They were able to recover deleted info to prove that the person often visited "violent" sites. Note that none of the sites were illegal.
Law enforcement agencies now have sophisticated equipment to recover deleted files. So, how does CCleaner measure up to prevent this?

[JDPower]

Beachdog, on Dec 20 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

Just how good is CCleaner? I'm curious because here in Australia police recently recovered info on sites visited to prosecute a person guilty of assault. They were able to recover deleted info to prove that the person often visited "violent" sites. Note that none of the sites were illegal.
Law enforcement agencies now have sophisticated equipment to recover deleted files. So, how does CCleaner measure up to prevent this?

Nope your out of luck, CCleaner (or pretty much any eraser on the market) doesn't erase to a level that can't be recovered forensically. You'll just have to stay away from those naughty sites

[Anthony A]

Or incinerate your HD. I would like to see the Gestapo recover info from a HD that doesn't exist anymore.

[Glenn]

Depending on how you surf, they may be able to get the info from your ISP.

[Anthony A]

Glenn, on Dec 20 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

Depending on how you surf, they may be able to get the info from your ISP.

Burn down your ISP than burn your HD.

[Beachdog]

Anthony A, on Dec 21 2007, 10:01 AM, said:

Burn down your ISP than burn your HD.

I like your style Anthony A. We need more men of action rather than the politically correct wimps who are polluting the planet.
Unfortunately, the State and Federal police never give advance warning because they don't want you to protect your "privacy". Therefore, they usually launch a raid between 0400 and 0600. The idea is to catch you sleepy and disorientated. George Orwell would be pleased if he could see how his predictions have come true.
Reminds me of my experience in Thailand, attending a medical conference. One of the locals advised me never to upset the local police. "If they decide that they don't like you, then they'll arrive at your hotel and bring the drugs with them. The judge always believes their version of events."
Actually, there's nothing illegal on my HD (unless my dog put it there. He can't be trusted)
Do any of you gurus know the story on portable HD's. I have a small business friend who keeps his official tax record on his main HD and a second set of "the genuine info" on a portable HD. He states the authorities will never know that he has two sets of books, but I'm not so sure.
Thanks to everyone who answered the original question.

[Anthony A]

Beachdog, on Dec 20 2007, 08:19 PM, said:

Reminds me of my experience in Thailand, attending a medical conference. One of the locals advised me never to upset the local police. "If they decide that they don't like you, then they'll arrive at your hotel and bring the drugs with them. The judge always believes their version of events."

That happens in every country believe me. The biggest criminals I know wear badges. If people knew the full extent of the corruption that goes on the system would implode.

[Augeas]

Beachdog, on Dec 20 2007, 07:33 PM, said:

Just how good is CCleaner? I'm curious because here in Australia police recently recovered info on sites visited to prosecute a person guilty of assault. They were able to recover deleted info to prove that the person often visited "violent" sites. Note that none of the sites were illegal.
Law enforcement agencies now have sophisticated equipment to recover deleted files. So, how does CCleaner measure up to prevent this?

This is an old bone but I'm quite happy to knaw on it again.

Deleted files, if not overwritten, are easily recoverable wioth Recuva, to name but one. If CC is set to one overwrite then it will overwrite most of your deleted files with zeros. There is no evidence that I can find that overwritten files can be recovered by anyone. Government agencies can do this? Perhaps, in theory, but there is no evidence that this is done and if the theory were to be put into practice it would take months if not years to examine a hard drive and cost hundreds of thousands of whatever currency you want to squander.

If recovery could be done with a scanning microscope etc then a rough calculation (someone check this) shows that if one bit is examined and recovered per second then it would take over 250 years to recover one gig.

I was browsing a site a few weeks ago that specialised in data recovery - from deleted files, disk crashes etc. They stated that overwritten files can not be recovered.

There may be some incriminating files that CC doesn't clean, which could give you problems. The index.dat files are, I believe, just deleted (by the OS) at reboot without overwriting, whatever option you set in CC. These files contain visited urls, I believe. Eventually they are overwritten by some other file allocation, and thus made safe.

I'm sure that there are other ways to discover your dastardly deeds, but not from overwritten files.

Rgds.

[Beachdog]

Augeas, on Dec 22 2007, 09:22 AM, said:

This is an old bone but I'm quite happy to knaw on it again.

Deleted files, if not overwritten, are easily recoverable wioth Recuva, to name but one. If CC is set to one overwrite then it will overwrite most of your deleted files with zeros. There is no evidence that I can find that overwritten files can be recovered by anyone. Government agencies can do this? Perhaps, in theory, but there is no evidence that this is done and if the theory were to be put into practice it would take months if not years to examine a hard drive and cost hundreds of thousands of whatever currency you want to squander.

If recovery could be done with a scanning microscope etc then a rough calculation (someone check this) shows that if one bit is examined and recovered per second then it would take over 250 years to recover one gig.

I was browsing a site a few weeks ago that specialised in data recovery - from deleted files, disk crashes etc. They stated that overwritten files can not be recovered.

There may be some incriminating files that CC doesn't clean, which could give you problems. The index.dat files are, I believe, just deleted (by the OS) at reboot without overwriting, whatever option you set in CC. These files contain visited urls, I believe. Eventually they are overwritten by some other file allocation, and thus made safe.

I'm sure that there are other ways to discover your dastardly deeds, but not from overwritten files.

Rgds.

[Augeas]

What on earth possessed me to spell gnaw knaw?

[Beachdog]

That's OK Augeas, My dog understood you. He understands anything to do with food or porno animal sites.
Thank for your help. Much appreciated. Have a relaxed and happy Xmas.

[Caldor]

Im Australian too but the issues remains the same across the globe.

The solution is to:
1. run TOR
2. Gnutmann is good enough
3. ACSI 33 (the declassified version) has the governments policy on the defence signals directorate site www.dsd.gov.au and many of the practices are good for common users too
4. Theres lots of other things such as shadow copies, search history, old registry files etcetc that would need cleanup too

[Beachdog]

Caldor, on Dec 25 2007, 02:06 PM, said:

Im Australian too but the issues remains the same across the globe.

The solution is to:
1. run TOR
2. Gnutmann is good enough
3. ACSI 33 (the declassified version) has the governments policy on the defence signals directorate site www.dsd.gov.au and many of the practices are good for common users too
4. Theres lots of other things such as shadow copies, search history, old registry files etcetc that would need cleanup too

Thanks Caldor. A very informative answer. Have a nice Xmas.

[DennisD]

What on earth are you guys trying to remove from your hard drives that warrants the depths of the discussion you're carrying on here?

Don't any of you guys have kids? Do you want the authorities to completely shelve the advances they've made in recovering information from hard drives? Or do you think they should be selective, and only target the paedophilic members of the worlds societies, the most heinous and depraved reprobates that have ever walked the face of the earth. Or should they turn a blind eye if they come across some other criminal activity?

Using CCleaner to get rid of the leftovers of a few porn sites you don't want your parents or your partner to find out about is one thing. But going to the lengths you're going to here, what on earth are you trying to hide?

And singling out the police again for a bashing I think is just really sad.

Are you naive enough to think that corruption is limited to the police forces of the world. Why don't you start laying into the Financial Institutions, the International Banking Communities, the Corporate Financiers, who are probably very close to controlling the very air that we breath.

The internet itself is a vast cesspool of corruption, which ordinary decent folk go to great lengths to avoid, and keep out of their lives. It's absolutely essential that Law Enforcement technology develops to combat this, and if people are engaged in activities that put them in fear of being discovered by these advances, then I don't have too much sympathy for them.

If I was a religious man, I'd thank god that we had police officers in every force, in every country, who risk their lives every time they pull on the uniform, in spite of the corrupt elements they have to contend with, to protect the property and families of everyone. And in spite of the people who take any opportunity to run them down.

"The biggest criminals I know wear badges".

What an insult to all the dedicated, hard working, law enforcement officers who get little thanks for what they do. If you feel the need to make a statement like that, and that is a broad, all encompassing statement, why on earth don't you make it in private conversation, and not in such a public arena?

How many of these "biggest criminals" do you actually know?

Am I over-reacting here?

All I can see is a topic based upon removing something from a hard drive that you really don't want the authorities to find. And if I thought that was what CCleaner and this community was about, then I'm naive, and shouldn't be here.

[Anthony A]

DennisD, on Dec 25 2007, 07:59 PM, said:

What on earth are you guys trying to remove from your hard drives that warrants the depths of the discussion you're carrying on here?

Don't any of you guys have kids? Do you want the authorities to completely shelve the advances they've made in recovering information from hard drives? Or do you think they should be selective, and only target the paedophilic members of the worlds societies, the most heinous and depraved reprobates that have ever walked the face of the earth. Or should they turn a blind eye if they come across some other criminal activity?

Using CCleaner to get rid of the leftovers of a few porn sites you don't want your parents or your partner to find out about is one thing. But going to the lengths you're going to here, what on earth are you trying to hide?

And singling out the police again for a bashing I think is just really sad.

Are you naive enough to think that corruption is limited to the police forces of the world. Why don't you start laying into the Financial Institutions, the International Banking Communities, the Corporate Financiers, who are probably very close to controlling the very air that we breath.

The internet itself is a vast cesspool of corruption, which ordinary decent folk go to great lengths to avoid, and keep out of their lives. It's absolutely essential that Law Enforcement technology develops to combat this, and if people are engaged in activities that put them in fear of being discovered by these advances, then I don't have too much sympathy for them.

If I was a religious man, I'd thank god that we had police officers in every force, in every country, who risk their lives every time they pull on the uniform, in spite of the corrupt elements they have to contend with, to protect the property and families of everyone. And in spite of the people who take any opportunity to run them down.

"The biggest criminals I know wear badges".

What an insult to all the dedicated, hard working, law enforcement officers who get little thanks for what they do. If you feel the need to make a statement like that, and that is a broad, all encompassing statement, why on earth don't you make it in private conversation, and not in such a public arena?

How many of these "biggest criminals" do you actually know?

Am I over-reacting here?

All I can see is a topic based upon removing something from a hard drive that you really don't want the authorities to find. And if I thought that was what CCleaner and this community was about, then I'm naive, and shouldn't be here.

Hmm, I could very easily get pissed off here and start something but I won't because I like you Dennis and you seem like a decent guy. Having said that I stand by what I said about "The biggest criminals I know wear badges". You asked if I know any personally and unfortunately I know far too many. Some are cops, some are border personnel, some are jail guards, some work for government ministries. They are a disgrace to the profession and the human race. They take the very powers that they are supposed use to protect and serve and use them to steal, lie, plant evidence, deal drugs, beat the $hit out of people, and many other acts of out right criminality. They make the criminals that they are supposed to protect us from look like Mother Teresa. They do this while they hide behind their badges like the useless trash they are. Maybe you have not had the misfortune of getting to know these truly undeserving of life pieces of crap but I have. I will tell you something else. They laugh about the fact they can do this crap and get away with it and have people like you defend them like you just did. Are there good law enforcement officials? Obviously there are. There are far too may though that shouldn't be breathing. I could get very very specific about things believe me. Maybe what they say about ignorance being bliss is true.

[Caldor]

Dennis, if someone chooses to assert their rights to privacy that is not an automatic signal of criminal activity.

Tor is used for lots of reasons by lots of people. There is those who break the law, such as the Chinese people who use Tor to hide the fact their IP is Chinese and surf up whatever they want too outside of their countries law........I encourage that, stuff those laws and more power to those Chinese who dont abide by them. I make no apology, electronic freedom is a human right that goes beyond what some men in power think are laws.

Tor, privoxy, gnutmann....give them all the tools they want I say.

[Anthony A]

Caldor, on Dec 25 2007, 11:10 PM, said:

Tor is used for lots of reasons by lots of people. There is those who break the law, such as the Chinese people who use Tor to hide the fact their IP is Chinese and surf up whatever they want too outside of their countries law........I encourage that, stuff those laws and more power to those Chinese who dont abide by them.

Yes Sir. I hope the over throw of the Chinese Government happens in my life time.

[Augeas]

DennisD, on Dec 26 2007, 12:59 AM, said:

What on earth are you guys trying to remove from your hard drives that warrants the depths of the discussion you're carrying on here?

Am I over-reacting here?

All I can see is a topic based upon removing something from a hard drive that you really don't want the authorities to find. And if I thought that was what CCleaner and this community was about, then I'm naive, and shouldn't be here.

Perhaps you are over-reacting a little, Dennis. Nobody here has advocated committing any criminal act, nor hiding any evidence from any authorities. Nobody has said that they have any files on their PC's that would incriminate them in any way, or they would like to remove beyond the point of recovery. (But I do have a personal banking details file that I would very much like to disappear into the ether.)

This is a tech discussion on one aspect of CCleaner (to which you have not raised any objection). Personally I find the tech aspects quite interesting, and these tech discussions are as relevant to recovering data as to finding it.

Unfortunately the thread has now veered off into some vilification of other soverign states, which is also interesting - but maybe not here.

Enjoy the rest of Boxing Day! Rgds.

PS A blooming power cut right in the middle of typing this. Grrrrrrr.

[DennisD]

Police discovery of deleted sites:

The heading of this thread says it all. This isn't a discussion about the recovery of deleted files, it's a discussion about the police discovering deleted files.

What sort of message do you think this gives to anyone reading it. I'm an ordinary guy, and I am a decent guy, and I found parts of this discussion uncomfortable.

If you don't want a reaction of this kind, then think about what you are putting down in print.

Quote

Law enforcement agencies now have sophisticated equipment to recover deleted files. So, how does CCleaner measure up to prevent this?

Quote

There may be some incriminating files that CC doesn't clean, which could give you problems.

What sort of reaction do you really expect from statements like this?

Quote

Dennis, if someone chooses to assert their rights to privacy that is not an automatic signal of criminal activity.

I agree completely Caldor, but you must realise this thread hasn't been talking about your rights to privacy. Look at the heading. It's been talking about the secure deletion of sites/files the Police would find incriminating.

So I'll say again, if you guys don't want the reaction you've gotten from me, then read through this thread again, and think about what some of you have put down in print, and how it comes across.

What I find really uncomfortable, is over 700 people have read this thread. I can only imagine some of the people who have been drawn to a thread entitled "Police recovery of deleted sites".

Can't any of you see that?

Quote

Maybe you have not had the misfortune of getting to know these truly undeserving of life pieces of crap but I have. I will tell you something else. They laugh about the fact they can do this crap and get away with it and have people like you defend them like you just did.

Anthony, you seem to really have it in for the police, and you undoubtedly have your reasons for that, but I'm certainly not defending corrupt members of the Law Enforcement Agencies. I'm not defending corrupt members of anything.

I worked with law enforcement many years ago, and do have first hand experience of what you say, but I wouldn't use this forum as a public arena to air my grievances about them.

We all know the police has a corrupt element, but corruption is rife everywhere, and we should be openly praising the people who still manage to do a good job in spite of it.

Finally, I'll state categorically that I'm not accusing anyone here of being involved in criminal activities, and I'm most definitely not even suggesting that any of you could be involved in really distasteful activities, but if I found the tone of this topic to be "uncomfortable", which I did, then I may not be the only one. Surely you must see that.

This is a very public place, and visited by a huge amount of people.

[davey]

Right on Dennis !!!
davey
Time to put this thread to rest.
Belongs in Lounge anyway.

Edited by davey, 26 December 2007 - 04:15 PM.